Transcript for Season 4 Episode 1 – Sam and Carmelina on ‘Humanities on Science’
Welcome back to The HPS Podcast. I'm Samara Greenwood, one of your hosts, and I'm excited to be introducing you to our fourth season of insightful discussion on all thing’s history, philosophy, and sociology of science.
In today's episode, Carmelina and I touch on a variety of topics, but a core theme is how we study science - and the world - through the lens of the humanities. Both Carmelina and I feel the skills and perspectives developed through disciplines such as history, sociology, and philosophy are crucial to resolving many of today's problems. So, it is incredibly sad that they continue to be undervalued by many. We hope our podcast in its own small way contributes to a broader appreciation of the richness and value of the humanities approach.
To both our returning listeners and to those joining us for the very first time, welcome. Thank you for joining us in our ongoing journey into the endlessly fascinating world of HPS.
Samara Greenwood: Hi Carmelina, welcome back to season four of The HPS Podcast.
Carmelina Contarino: Hi Sam, great to be here.
[00:01:09]
Samara Greenwood: How did you find working on season three?
Carmelina Contarino: I really enjoyed it. It was an interesting challenge, learning some new skills. I got to work with some amazing people, chief amongst those yourself, and got to speak with some really interesting researchers about the different things that they were working on.
Samara Greenwood: Was there a particular highlight for you?
Carmelina Contarino: In season three, I'd say that my favourite was Uliana Feast.
Samara Greenwood: It was a fabulous episode. I really enjoyed that one.
Carmelina Contarino: Oh, thank you. What was your favourite episode?
Samara Greenwood: I really enjoyed all of season three. There were some really great episodes and some really great topics as well. But I have to say the first episode of season three, where I interviewed Lorraine Daston and Peter Harrison, two of our most eminent historians of science was definitely a highlight. Doing the interview itself was just fabulous. Hearing them articulate things that they were clearly passionate about so eloquently. They were just a delight to listen to.
I was kind of a bit taken aback while I was doing the interview itself. I can't match their level of erudition. Did I even say that word right? Literally I was just in awe, and I loved the message they were talking about. We got a lot of great publicity for it. It seems like a lot of people really enjoyed that episode. So, let's put that one up there as my top for season three.
[00:02:33]
Carmelina Contarino: I did want to ask you, what's it like to interview your heroes?
Samara Greenwood: It's happened a few times, right? I've interviewed quite a few people that I definitely had read their work and knew about them way before I got to speak to them via the interview. I actually have to kind of pretend that they're somebody else that they are just another person I'm interviewing, they're no one special, they're just like us. Otherwise, I can get really nervous, and I think it would come across a lot more. It's my version of pretending the audience is in underwear. They are just an average person; they have to cook dinner just like we do.
[00:03:07]
Carmelina Contarino: I really enjoyed the piece you recently wrote about starting the podcast. It's called ‘Expanding the Community: Public Engagement and the HPS Podcast.’ You talk about humanities communication and public engagement, as distinct from scientific communication.
Why is it so important that we communicate what is happening in the humanities to the public and to scientists?
Samara Greenwood: This has become something, especially through doing the podcast, that I've become more and more interested in. One of the episodes coming up in this season is with a science communicator and someone who runs a science communication course here at Melbourne Uni. As I spoke with her, I thought, ‘Why don't we have humanities communication? Why don't we have subjects in this? Why isn't this a field of research about how we communicate the humanities?’
I think this is a real lack. I know in Australia, and I suspect elsewhere around the world, the arts and the humanities aren't valued in the same way that science is. Even with science and the arts together, we know scholarship isn't as valued as it should be, as I think it should be, in the general community. Part of how we change that view is by letting people know more about what we do, showing them the value of what we do, showing the richness.
I think the humanities has so much to offer in terms of thinking in more complex ways about difficult subjects. We're living in very challenging times, and I see Arts students come through, from first year through to third year. As they learn about all the wonderful humanities subjects and the different points of view, they start to see the world in these more nuanced ways and can talk about complex problems in ways that show the shades of grey. They are not just black and white thinkers. I think that is such a special thing to experience and such a special thing to learn. It's definitely what I get out of being part of the humanities, being part of history and philosophy of science.
I have this desire - Why can't we share this more? Why can't more people understand how special this is and be able to engage with it, even informally, to help us become a bit more sophisticated in our thinking in general across the board?
Carmelina Contarino: I guess lamenting the fact that they don't get the opportunity to engage with that.
It seems that the majority of people doing HPS, who do it through humanities, don't necessarily have a science background, but they are bringing a range of other expertise and other nuance to the discussion.
[00:05:47]
Samara Greenwood: I think it's great to have scholars that have a detailed science background. Particularly if they've done research in science, they have that firsthand experience to relate things to. But I also think it's valuable to have scholars who don't, because in any training we do, you take on certain assumptions and certain practices and even certain ways of thinking. They are hard to dislodge if they're already embedded in what your training has given you. If you haven't already got those and you come to HPS, you don't have this sort of solid idea of what science is through practice. I think that can give you a different perspective. I'm not saying one's better or worse, just different in being a little bit more challenging of some of those deeper assumptions that might be harder for someone that has had some significant training. I don't know, but that's my perspective.
[00:06:39]
Carmelina Contarino: It's really interesting because as we hear at the beginning of each episode, there are so many different ways of coming to HPS and the journey seems to be unique for most people. Whether they take a path through science or they take a path through the humanities, their paths still seem to be unique and formed in ways that then are reflected through their research practices.
Samara Greenwood: I think that's one of the reasons I've really liked keeping that question. One, it adds a personal dimension, which I think is nice when we often talk about abstract concepts. It's nice to have that human factor. But also, because I think it does tell us a little bit of something about the research they do and why they might, why any of us might, come at it from a particular perspective versus a different one. Some of that's about our background.
On a different topic, you recently submitted your Honours thesis in HPS with the title, ‘Position and Purpose: Understanding Exploratory Research’. I know exploratory research is of great interest to a lot of people. So, I was wondering if you could tell us a key finding that might be of interest to our audience.
[00:07:48]
Carmelina Contarino: It was an honour getting to speak to the 30 people that I did get to interview for my thesis and I’m grateful for the candour with which they answered the questions. I suppose if I had to pick one, it's that there's a view generally that exploratory research is about that sort of Greenfields thinking, but what actually came out within the nuance of the discussion was that there is a lot of different types of exploration that we engage in.
So as part of the research, I developed a taxonomy of exploratory research, which you'll be able to read about in a forthcoming article. It was really interesting to see how far from that broad exploration view, that most people have, it does come. Also, how many ways it can be enacted throughout the research process.
[00:08:42]
Samara Greenwood: I find that interesting. Just going through my own research process at the moment, you think you're coming to the pointy end and you're writing and then you go on another little exploratory journey. It really does keep cropping up. So, I was interested, was there one kind of exploratory research that was particularly unusual? Something that might surprise us?
Carmelina Contarino: I'd say the most unexpected is in the development of models and techniques within the research process. So that could be tweaking existing models or techniques or developing new ones, applying them to new situations. That is a type of exploration researchers engage in, but from my discussions with them, they don't actually see that as exploration. That's just part of the process that they go through.
I think the problem with casting it in that light - of just being part of the process - is that it minimises our perception of exploratory research. That of course impacts funding, publishing, and a whole range of other areas that impact on the scientist's work as they go through.
Speaking of publishing, Sam, congratulations on publishing your first peer reviewed article in the wonderful Studies in History and Philosophy of Science journal. It's called The Problem of Context Revisited, Moving Beyond the Resources Model. How was that experience for you?
[00:10:02]
Samara Greenwood: It feels great, actually. It's one of those milestones in anyone's academic journey, especially when they're doing a PhD, to have your first article published. So, it's been very exciting.
Those in the industry know it's a very long process. So that was an interesting learning curve. I knew it was going to be an extended process, submitting, waiting for reviews to come in, responding to comments in the reviews, revising in the meantime, trying to really tighten up the arguments in the piece. I found it really rewarding. I was really thrilled by the responses I got from the reviewers. There were lots of positive comments and there were some strong criticisms. The criticisms were great in that they really helped me go back, revisit what I was doing and sharpen up and even rethink a couple of things in the smaller instances.
I didn't know what to expect because you hear some horror stories, but my experience was fabulous. Then to actually, of course, see it published. A wonderful experience to come out of it - one of the main people that I write about in the article contacted me afterwards, who I hadn't been in contact with before, and we've started a conversation, which has been really enjoyable.
This is how we grow, right? This is how our learning grows, by having these conversations from different perspectives and finding out where we agree, where we disagree, why we disagree about things. So yes, just such a joy. I can say that now that it's published. Probably in the middle of it, I wouldn't have said that.
[00:11:38]
Carmelina Contarino: It's really interesting that it has sparked that discussion. I think that's a really important part of scholarship. It's not just reading things and thinking about them, but also engaging with different people and getting different perspectives and different ideas is huge.
Samara Greenwood: As part of in my broader research, one of the things that I get interested in, particularly in my history research, is motivation. What motivates someone to have this particular view, especially if it is unusual in a particular time. Why did they make that strange move? I get that also when I'm talking with other scholars, if they have a different perspective and I'm not quite sure why they're coming from where they're coming from, talking about it and unpacking that. It's just fascinating.
[00:12:29]
Carmelina Contarino: Through my work in digital ethics, I get to have a lot of conversations with people about the work that I'm doing, about the work that they're doing. We all kind of riff off each other and you'll just sit there sometimes and have an aha moment. It's like, how did I not see this before? That link is so clear, and they've put it across so well. It is one of the joys of academia that you do get to discuss things with people and, particularly in HPS, to discuss things in an interdisciplinary setting.
[00:13:02]
Samara Greenwood: One hundred percent. On that line of thinking, I know a couple of months ago, you travelled to the massive 4S conference held in Amsterdam this year. Was there a talk that you enjoyed in particular?
Carmelina Contarino: When you say massive, you're not joking. It was huge. The hardest part about attending this conference was narrowing down the talks that you got to go to, especially when you're interested in a few different areas, or your research covers a few different areas, it was difficult to narrow it down.
If I had to pick one, I would say the panel discussion on ‘Scientific cultures in conflict and transition: Studying reform in action.’ In particular, Nicole Nelson talking on that panel. I was lucky to catch up with her after the panel talk. Then, very recently, interview her for season four. It's a really good conversation.
[00:14:00]
Samara Greenwood: I can't wait to hear that one. Have you got a particular topic that you talk about in that interview?
Carmelina Contarino: Nicole is an ethnographer, and we focus on ethnography and the study of scientists within their work environment and how using ethnographic practices can provide us with a better view of what scientists are actually doing, as opposed to looking at the published record down the track.
[00:14:25]
Samara Greenwood: For those who might not have heard about ethnography, how can you sum up what ethnography is in two sentences?
Carmelina Contarino: So, ethnography is studying the way that people engage and interact within their environment and trying to understand why things are done the way they're done.
There are different examples that she comes up with. Interestingly, she does say that it's started to move from just being lab-based ethnography to encompassing the broader environments in which scientists work. So, looking at conferences and attending workshops, the places where they're actually discussing their work practices, very similar to what I did in my Honours thesis. When I conducted interviews, the majority of those were done at reform conferences to try and get a better understanding of how that reform was impacting the people who were there.
Samara Greenwood: I can't wait to hear that episode and to learn more about ethnography in practice. I've read about it. I've heard about it. I personally haven't done it. So, I think that sounds really interesting. Good one for everyone.
[00:15:37]
Carmelina Contarino: It promises to be a really interesting episode, so look out for it. Tell us Sam, what else is happening in season four?
Samara Greenwood: We have another fabulous 12-week season coming up with lots of great interviews. The first episode is with Simon Schaffer talking about a ‘famous in HPS’ book. It might not be famous ‘out there’, but it certainly is in the HPS world. It's a book he co-wrote with Steven Shapin almost 40 years ago now called Leviathan and the Air-Pump. Carmelina, you know what I'm talking about?
Carmelina Contarino: I do.
Samara Greenwood: All those HPSers out there listening know what I'm talking about.
Carmelina Contarino: It's a classic. It is a canonical book.
Samara Greenwood: This is it. All those words, canonical, classic. It's an awesome book. It has been mentioned a couple of times on the podcast, with other people talking about it as important in their own development. I remember Emma Kowal was one and others have talked about it. I thought, ‘Oh, you know what? People are hearing this and if they haven't come across it or heard of the book, they won't know what we're talking about. Why don't we do a focus episode on it?’
Plus, next year is the 40th anniversary since it was published, so it seemed apt, getting in early before everyone else.
It was an absolute delight when Simon said yes. I did ask both Simon and Steven, and they volunteered Simon to be nominated to be interviewed. It was a fun interview. So many great insights. It's been difficult editing it down because we did have quite a long chat. So, hopefully everyone really enjoys that because I just found it fascinating, some of the little anecdotes as well as the deep and meaningful stuff that we got to talk about. He talks a bit about some of the reasons he thinks it became such a high-profile book in the field. Of course, it's a great book, you know, but why do some great books just take off and others don't? So, listen out for his perspective on that. I think he's pretty much on the money - from my perspective. Ha, what do I know? But it sounded good.
[00:17:42]
Carmelina Contarino: So, season four promises to hold some classic voices in HPS, but we've also got some fresh voices joining us this season, courtesy of our HPS Post Grad group at Melbourne University.
Samara Greenwood: It is great. We've got some more people joining us on the podcast. Hopefully in the future, the idea is that we will have a range of people interviewing.
[00:18:03]
Carmelina Contarino: So, I'm really looking forward to season four. Sam, how about you?
Samara Greenwood: Absolutely. Looking forward to putting out there all these great interviews, great discussions, lots of insights, and please do keep contacting us. Contact us through social media. We had a beautiful review on Apple iTunes, which I will have to share with everyone.
Thank you so much, Carmelina, for joining me on the podcast, both in all the work you put into it and for this lovely conversation we've had today.
Carmelina Contarino: Thank you, Sam. As always, it's a pleasure working with you and working with The HPS Podcast team.
[00:18:40]
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Thank you for listening to Season Four of The HPS Podcast. If you're interested in the detail of today's conversation, you can access the transcript on our website at www.hpsunimelb.org.
Stay connected with us on social media, including Blue Sky, for updates, extras, and further discussion. We would also like to thank the School of Historical and Philosophical Studies at the University of Melbourne for their ongoing support.
And thank you for joining us in the wonderful world of HPS. We look forward to having you back again next time.
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